"A series of fortunate coincidences" - how two writers made it from creative writing students to publishing professionals | Part I
Interview with Zoe-Aline Howard (literary agent at Howland Literary, and book publicist at Pine State Publicity) and Cassie Mannes Murray (director of Pine State Publicity)
Cassie Mannes Murray is the director of Pine State Publicity, an inaugural board member at Lookout Books, an award-winning essayist, and a mom to two young boys. She holds an MFA from University of North Carolina Wilmington in creative nonfiction.
Twitter: @cassmannes Instagram: @pinestatepublicity
Substack: pinestatepublicity.substack.com
Zoe-Aline Howard is a literary agent at Howland Literary, and a book publicist at Pine State Publicity. She holds a BFA and Publishing Certificate from the University of North Carolina Wilmington, and has had the privilege to work across publishing with several entities, including independent press Lookout Books.
Twitter: @zoealinehoward,
What have your journeys as writers been like and what was behind the decisions that you made to get to where you are today?
ZH: Essayist behavior, but my writing and entrance into dual-careers as a literary-agent-cum-publicist have been more like a series of fortunate coincidences than an easily labeled journey. (Like really, it’s giving lyric essay.) The original plan was to study fiction writing in New York, but that became a focus on creative nonfiction in the BFA program at the University of North Carolina Wilmington, which is where I met Cassie, took her up on my first internship in the industry (at Howland Literary, where I work now as an associate agent), and chased her into a mentorship (and a publicity job) that now absolutely feeds my work in all forms.
CMM: It’s funny that Zoe calls her journey a “series of fortunate coincidences” when she writes like this, and has unquestionable levels of talent. When you add that to her ferocity as an editor, designer, all-in-one-trifecta-of-artist-skill, it’s so obvious to me that she would end up in careers that are creative. But also, I wish she had more time to write. Working in publishing, I would say for both of us, means that our creative brain sometimes only goes to our work and we have to have really strong boundaries to put some of that energy towards writing. Both of us have learned we have to write in the morning. UNCW has this thing called “Write Wilmington” every Friday morning and Zoe is really good about going and I have literally said every Friday, I’ll go and then … toddler.
My journey is probably similar to a lot of writers. I wrote my first “book” at six, called The Toe Jam Wars, an instant classic and instant New York Times bestseller, and from there I had a lot of diaries, like a fragile amount of diaries that have moved houses with me far too many times to count.
I did all the usual things. I majored in English at North Carolina State, studying under the formidable Dorianne Laux for several years–and meeting Rob Greene (my poetry partner in her class–she assigned us when he was still wearing his motorcycle helmet and I was nineteen feeling like, “oh no, I got paired with helmet guy,” and turns out helmet guy is a true champion of the arts. Rob runs Raleigh Review, teaches at Saint Augustine University, and he really pushed me at the right times (and trusted me with early RR stuff). I also studied English with the support of my parents (which I feel is important to my confidence across my career)–both my folks were like “be an artist! Dream big!” Because of their support, I’ve taken risks that I wouldn’t have otherwise taken.
And then I couldn’t find a job when I graduated (I did move to Australia for a boy after college so debatable if I was really looking), and instead, I went back to school to earn my teaching credentials and became a high school teacher (loved it), but after six years, I was truly burned out by the system and decided to apply to one MFA program, UNCW. I applied in poetry and nonfiction (using my tinyletter essays that were lyric essays, but I didn’t know that was the name for them), was lucky enough to get into the program in both genres + a publishing laboratory fellowship (changed my life, honestly) where I learned and taught book design and book publishing, and met Zoe.
During the MFA, I became a really intense, anxious hermit (it’s not true that you have to suffer to be a good writer, but I did believe that at the time, and I saw everyone around me as competition to … what, who knows?). I published a lot of writing work I’m really proud of that gave me good momentum, but I didn’t make a ton of friends. In a forms class, we read Kaitlyn Greenidge’s We Love You, Charlie Freeman, and on a whim I cold-emailed Greenidge’s agent and asked her if I could do WHATEVER for her at her agency if she would take me on as an intern. She did and I made myself impossible to let go–becoming a literary agent during my MFA.
Working in publishing means that our creative brain sometimes only goes to our work and we have to have really strong boundaries to put some of that energy towards writing.
Turns out, I don’t love editing. I also don’t love BIG publishing (conglomerate publishing). So, after four years and bringing a handful of really incredible books to market, I switched to publicity (again, a whim). I just thought … what the big five attempts to do for these big books, I can do for indie books (this is where supportive parents come in again, and a partner who has health insurance–major, major, major–I’m privileged to jump off the cliffs of possible failure).
I launched Pine State Publicity. Zoe graduated from the BFA program at UNCW and I asked her to come work at Pine State because I know the level of work and brilliance she carries around.
(Then I became a mom and haven’t written anything but a diary, our Pine State newsletter, and notes app lines to myself for three years. The momentum has slowed. I never looked at my thesis again after graduation. I'll probably, in my lifetime, write so many unpublished books, and that has become truly fine for me since becoming a mom. I’m stewing, that’s what this part is, the pre-volcanic-eruption stewage).
What drew you to pursue a career in the publishing industry?
CMM: I had a book blog in the early aughts called Books & Bowel Movements where I reviewed books and did this scoop thing called “Newsday Tuesday” where I collected all the publishing news I could find in one spot. I’m realizing now it was kind of like Publisher’s Lunch. It ended up with quite a large subscriber base and I started getting galleys from in-house publicists. I’ll never forget the personalized notes from Dana Trocker (who is at Atria now) specifically. She once sent me a black bar of soap and a speckled mug for Alice Hoffman’s The Rules of Magic.
I knew I wanted to be a part of whatever Dana had–which was a notecard with a publisher’s logo on it, but if I’m being honest, writing was my motivator. I guess, at that point in my life–late teens, early twenties–I thought I would be taken more seriously as a writer if I could just crack into publishing. I thought if I got myself closer to the industry, maybe someone would take a chance on my books. It was a selfish motivator, and it didn’t get me very far.
Between that book blog and my first publishing job outside of reading and editing for literary magazines, was almost ten years. I circled publishing for a long time, and I got a break by betting on me and by being (kind of) fearless with rejection. I tell students all the time, cold email (cold message on Linkedin) folks who have the job you want. Ask them for thirty minutes to pick their brain. Relationships (who you know) are what gets folks in the door in publishing, not having the best resume. It’s an apprenticeship job, and it’s who you know.
I always knew I wasn’t moving to New York City, and it’s important to me that the southeast of the US has publishing cred, that the South is known for more than crawdad’s sing. So, I pursued publishing like I could devour it. And when it wasn’t as satisfying as I thought (working on the inside), I started to build what I wanted to see.
ZH: I can’t echo the Books & Bowel Movements success, but it was absolutely also the glamor that I projected onto the industry that called me to it, initially. (My platform of choice was a bookstagram pairing books and vinyl, which I ran for all of three months, mid-pandemic, during my sophomore year of college–I copped exactly one free, unsolicited ARC for Gordon Lish’s Death and So Forth.)
My “call” to make changes in publishing was learned, and slowly–I wish that I could say I wanted to come into publishing to firm up the southern landscape, or to represent queer authors, or drive public reception of the types of books I love (the oft-indie’d). All of that is true, now, but the mission came out of realizing, firsthand, the barriers faced by folks writing the material/forms/regions that I do. I wanted to work in publishing because I loved books. I want to work in publishing now because I want to see more of the books that I love.
Part II forthcoming on Thursday, April 4th - including tips on how to increase your chances of landing a job in the publishing industry, the usefulness of MFAs, & more!